Showing Stepping into the Future
February 3, 2014 | Revolution Newspaper | revcom.us
Editor's note: A Revolution correspondent sat down with a younger generation person who has been active in the movement for revolution and studying BA, to learn about their experience showing Stepping into the Future with friends, over the holidays, and generally connecting them with the work and leadership of Bob Avakian and the whole movement for revolution.
Q: You had experience showing Stepping into the Future to a couple friends, and I want to hear the whole story. First of all, without getting too detailed—who are they, what made them open to watching it?
A: These are both friends of mine from college. One is very into what is going on with the environment, and trying to understand the impact of global warming and climate change. He’s someone I’ve tried to talk to about revolution and communism. We’ve had struggle over the need for leadership, and why just being anti-capitalist doesn’t mean people understand the need for revolution. The other person is really into constitutional rights and defending the U.S. constitution. He’s really outraged about police brutality, and how the police are bearing down on people in the community he lives in—which includes a lot of Black and Latino people. He’s seen a lot of shit go down with the cops that’s made him very upset. He’s largely questioning the legitimacy of the current authority.
So, from my end, I was thinking there was a lot of potential to open their sights to the need for revolution, because neither of them proceeds from how the world could be different. They’re trying to grapple with the horrors of the world but they haven’t lifted their sights to how the world could be and what is the game changer in the current conditions. So I wanted to show them this film—to see how there is a leading edge to this that can inspire people. Yes, the world is a horror, but there is a different way the world can be. So I thought the film, because it’s largely focusing on cultural trends, and taking on a lot of this misogynistic logic and the way people are atomized under capitalism—I thought my friends would agree with parts of the interviews and it would open up a conversation about what they disagreed with.
One of my friends, for example, didn’t know about the Watts Riots [In 1965, there was a major uprising of Black people against their oppression in the Watts district in Los Angeles], and there is an image in the film that captures why people rose up, and what that says about the system we live in.
So one of the things that came up, one of these friends of mine is a musician—when he was watching the film at one point I had to pause it and he was like: that could have been me. Meaning he could have been part of this celebration of the release of BAsics. So, then we got into why is it that these people who are trying to use art—that BA is informing the work they’re doing. Why is it they’re learning from BA, and what is it they’re learning from him? I brought forward to this friend that revolution requires all kinds of people with all kinds of skills and capacities. One thing that comes out in the interviews is what people have to say about how the world could be different.
Q: You raised that one of your friends disagrees with the need for leadership. How did that play out in the experience of watching the film?
A: He said, Oh, I didn’t know this was BA’s experience. I didn’t know he had worked with the Black Panther Party, that he came out of Berkeley, that he was part of forging this whole understanding of what happened in China. Then he brought up: I feel BA has this longevity and that’s why people are drawn to him. And I was struggling with him that it’s not just that BA has been around 40 years but what level of understanding did he put forward synthesizing why we’re in the situation we’re in today and how to get out of it.
Q: What kinds of responses did your friends have to the video?
A: So, when I was watching Stepping into the Future with this friend of mine, he said he never thought about BA in relation to how people relate to each other. The social dimension. We started talking about the quote from BAsics about you can’t break all the chains except one—without a revolution how could you uproot all the ways women are oppressed in this society. It’s not just that women are sex workers, or the opposite end of that, covered in the burka. It’s all the thinking that goes with that—that the role of women is to be wives and mothers.
But he also brought up that the film, what he got from the film, he got inspired by the idea of communist revolution. That he had thought the world was terrible, but didn’t feel inspired by the idea of communist revolution. He hasn’t studied deeply the science of revolution, but he felt inspired by creating a new culture that goes beyond what he thought was possible.
Q: Were there parts of the film that people more responded to?
A: The guy from the Last Poets—the poem that was read, one of them responded to that. They both—a lot of people have said this but they both responded to what Sable [in the film] was saying about socialism changing the whole economic foundation and social relations, where everyone gets a piece of the pie. That requires a whole different culture. They both thought that was moving.
And when Leo from Outernational was saying BAsics makes more sense to him than anything he’s read, neither of these friends has read BAsics. I’ve read them quotes. The one about how people’s individual experience doesn’t define reality, we talk about that.
Q: You “talk about that” - is that a euphemism for arguing about that a lot?
A: Yeah (laughs). A lot of how one of these guys talks about things is his own personal experience, and thinks objective reality doesn’t exist beyond his personal narrative, so yeah, we fight about that a lot. But the interesting thing here is Leo made this point about this: The guy who was in the BPP said I’m gonna be there with you, I’m not gonna leave you alone, we need a revolution, and you’ve gotta do that. Leo commented on that—naming groups of people, how can you do anything less than this. One of my friends responded very favorably to that, that is really true. Things have culminated to this point, that there’s been all kinds of struggle.
I thought it was interesting that both of my friends were responding to points about where we are in the world today. Neither of them thinks, on most days at least, that we can make a revolution. But through watching the film, I think they began to see how it’s possible. Through this cultural dimension, that you have to uproot the culture of the world as it is today. Not only fighting that, but setting totally different terms.
This one friend of mine is really against what the police do, really into constitutional rights. He felt these prisoner letters that are read in the film were very moving, very vibrant. My other friend who saw the film also responded to these prisoners’ letters with, why have they taken up BA and I haven’t? He asked how is it these prisoners have taken this up and I haven’t, what do they understand that I don’t?
Q: How do you see that?
A: The more people delve into BA’s work, the more they have a basis to see the world doesn’t have to be this way. I’ve been struggling with this friend to read BAsics and get into BA for some time now. He is watching the environmental process. He hates misogyny, but he doesn’t see revolution as the solution. And I was saying a lot of these prisoners, because BAsics is in the prisons, through the PRLF [Prisoners Revolutionary Literataure Fund], they have begun to grapple with realities they faced before going to prison. BA is speaking to something a lot of these prisoners understand on a very visceral level. But I was also saying experience doesn’t equal reality. The fact that he hasn’t experienced what these prisoners experienced doesn’t mean he can’t understand what BA means to the world and society.
Q: This event clearly brought a range of people together, occasioned by the release of BAsics, but there was a core to it. How did they see that?
A: One of my friends is more anarchist, and he doesn’t think you need leadership to change things, but then again, he doesn’t think things can be substantively different than things are now. He hasn’t really investigated a lot of what happened in the sixties, what happened in China then, and what people in the world were looking to. One thing that did come up, he didn’t notice that not everyone who was interviewed was a communist. He didn’t point that out. But he did notice that people are taking out different points they find important in terms of BA.
I asked what he meant by that. He said that one artist was talking about how BA emphasizes the role of slavery—I think he was referring to Dread Scott. The other artist, Kyle, talks about the ethos of capitalism, and how things should be. I asked him to go further with that. He just thought that in terms of what BA would be leading he would be talking about the economic system and why it is oppressive to workers, and I was trying to bring out how the movement for revolution has different dimensions.
I tried reading the “Some Principles” thing that is in the paper every week, and how key concentrations of the system are the oppression of Black people and women. And that if we don’t get the substance of BA’s work out there, and having that be a force in society, we’re not gonna be able to move on these contradictions, setting different terms for things. He had a lot of questions about this: You talk about vanguard leadership but how do you know when you’re in power, that won’t corrupt itself—basically this “all power corrupts absolutely” thing. He said every time someone gets in a position of leadership, they get a taste of power and don’t want to share that. I talked about the three different paths– the world remaining as it is, going against things but deepening people’s suffering, and the other is a way out of this. Sorry, I’m paraphrasing. But if we don’t seriously address the problem that right now, people don’t know Bob Avakian is out there, then even people who feel capitalism is totally oppressing people, that people need to rise up and fight, that that momentum gets lost, people get bogged down in not being able to actually rise up in any meaningful way.
Then he said, in response to what I said about the situation we face—he said how are you doing all that? I said we are trying to involve more and more people, and strategizing over which way forward, and what can be done. It’s not like we’re going to people and saying: this is what we need to do. I said I’m trying to get your thinking on how you respond and who we should be going out to.
Q: How did that go?
A: He said nobody ever asks him what he thinks. He never has these conversations. One person he suggested talking to was a relative of his who works with Food Not Bombs. But he said nobody ever asked him how would we get out of this shit. He said I don’t know if we can get out of this shit but I have to think about what you said, why leadership.
Q: In terms of learning from and spreading this kind of experience, did you go through any changes in your own thinking to make this happen?
A: A lot of my friends want to change the world, but they haven’t grappled in terms of strategy. So, among my friends, I have a lot of defensiveness in telling them about important stuff in the newspaper, or new things BA has come out with. Things that deepen our understanding of how to put this out in the world. I thought about this. I get frustrated, what’s wrong with my friends that they don’t get this. I felt like what I was reading in the paper and at revcom.us is that when people go out to their family and friends they were supportive, and that’s not what I’ve experienced. But, I decided to not start with oh crap, they’re not gonna like this, but to just let them watch this and see and engage with what they think. I’ve sent them some things about BA and his vision but not something like this where we watched the film together and were able to talk about what stood out to them.
I know the trajectory of these friends of mine from college, a lot of them don’t think the world can be any different, yet if you gave them a choice of do they want exploitation or not, they’d say not. But they don’t realize that all these other programs won’t get you beyond exploitation. They don’t see distinctions in line. This has come up a lot, and came up again after one of my friends watched Stepping into the Future. He said you’re not the only ones talking about revolution. I said who else is talking about communist revolution, smashing capitalism, and bringing forward a whole new society and set of social relations and way society would be organized. He brought up that student co-ops on campus are anti-capitalist and mention revolution. I said there’s a difference between leading and fighting for a revolution and fighting for that.
Off of watching Stepping into the Future, there are a lot of substantive questions that come up about how we project BA out there, and why is BA’s argument more scientific and more grounded in reality than other things out there. In terms of what changed my own thinking about doing this—you asked about that—first, I don’t think its true that other people really are talking about a system change when they talk about revolution. But I also thought about what it means to be leading with revolution, and not just we’re trying to end patriarchy, and there’s this revolution thing out over here, like on the side or added on to talking about ending women’s oppression. Why is getting rid of patriarchy part of bringing forward a whole new system? Without a revolution, we can’t get rid of women’s oppression. I went to Jackson, Mississippi with the Stop Patriarchy people, getting out in the world, and we would talk about why are we trying to stop patriarchy and why we need revolution.
Q: Is there more to share about things provoked in your friends thinking, or yours, from watching Stepping into the Future with them?
A: My friend who is really into constitutional rights works with attorneys who are into constitutional rights. I was a little nervous about showing him the film. I went back to how the Constitution for the New Socialist Republic in North America (Draft Proposal) (CNSRNA) frames rights, versus how this is framed in the U.S. constitution. So I had to go review the CNSRNA—I hadn’t looked at it in a while. I was looking at it not only in terms of how it frames rights, including positive rights whereas in this society rights are negative rights, but also the whole vision of freedom—contrasting that to the U.S. constitution. My friend thinks we need more amendments and a new constitutional convention. With him, I was nervous, how do I take on this question of rights.
Q: Were there other things in the film that provoked them, or you?
A: One of them thought it was cool how Annie Day was narrating the film and explained BA’s trajectory. There were things people just didn’t know about—like the Last Poets. One of them commented on what Sable [in the film] was saying about how degrading it is to go to clubs and just be hit on. One of these guys like trance music, but notices how a lot of women are harassed. He really united about wanting all the beat and music and passion but not lyrics that make you feel like shit afterwards. A lot of the music hypersexualizes women and treats them as objects.
We’ve grown up in a world where there hasn’t been a revolutionary society to point to, to look up to. We’ve lived with a lot of repression. One of my friends brings up a lot that any movement that’s gonna rise up to fight the powers that be is gonna get crushed, so what’s the point. He doesn’t know the history of the first wave of communist revolution. He hasn’t lived in a society where that’s been visible and real to him. And that contextualizes how this film affected them.
I was raising to one of them, all we can think of is “counter-culture” but that means constantly having to respond to dominant culture, but what BA’s talking about is a whole different culture, beyond our conceptions of culture under this system. Thinking in far more libratory and creative ways. One of these friends is also a musician—and as I said, he said: I could have been part of that. I said these are all people relating to BA and what he’s brought forward. I told him everyone has creativity but under capitalism that gets suppressed. It’s not profitable. So people don’t think in those terms. In any future society, we’d have to be unleashing people to be thinking freely and doing brainstorming beyond the narrow parameters we have now. To get beyond this concept of narrowing people’s understanding. But we’d want to invite a lot of new forms of expression. One of the things that came out of the Riot Grrl movement was spoken word that hit at how women are exploited, with a lyrical content that before that was not given expression to. We’d have to think even far beyond that, examples of how we can maximize and broaden how people can contribute.
Q: As you’re talking about the impact of the film, I’ve been getting more appreciation for the title, Stepping into the Future.
A: Yeah, and that reminds me. My friend who is into constitutional rights, he brought up in relation to the guy in the film who was in the Black Panther Party, Richard, who said get BAsics, and make a revolution. My friend was like, what does that have to do with what I can be doing now? I said the future is unwritten. The trajectory now is very harmful. It is unwritten, but up to us to transform these things. How BA talks about there isn’t gonna be a savior, it is on people living in this country and all around the world, taking this on. There is a level of responsibility here. I said, if you’re serious—BA makes this point in BAsics—you would be serious about getting with this revolution.
He brought up that he’s met people in the Stop Mass Incarceration Network and he finds them inspiring. He was telling me how this comrade was struggling with him—if you want to stop mass incarceration and bringing about a different world, you should come out with us, taking out Revolution [newspaper] and learning from people’s experience under this system. And things are getting worse. My friend was saying, I don’t know much about this, I have a friend who is (he was talking about me), but I’m not ready. And he said this comrade told him, you don’t need answers to all these questions, but if you just say that’s not for me, you don’t contribute to anything but things staying the way they are, and getting worse.
I told him when I first started coming around I didn’t know much about revolution, but I wanted to learn more. For the first time in my life, people told me “that’s not correct” if I was wrong. I had a professor in college who said how are you gonna end rape culture, all you can do is support rape victims. I was very upset by that. But when I encountered people with the movement for revolution, I went out with the newspaper and only said very few things. The more you get into BA’s thinking, the more basis you have to struggle with people and raise other people’s sights and why revolution is possible, the basis for why we can actually do this. Why it’s not a pipe dream.
My friend who is into constitutional rights listened to BA’s New Year’s Message with his dad. He emailed me: his dad “has a lot of disagreements.” I’ll find out what those are.
Q: One thing that strikes me as you recount these experiences is how different dimensions of the ensemble of revolutionary work are impacting people—with appreciating and popularizing BA at the leading edge, along with revcom.us and Revolution, but also other things we’re doing around mass incarceration and ending patriarchy work together.
A: I think they understand we are serious. We aren’t gonna back down. We totally see the current situation for people is untenable. They do respect that. That draws them to a lot of what we’re doing. Even while at the same time being into constitutional rights. We’re struggling over whether capitalism is a SYSTEM or just the prison-industrial complex. Understanding capitalism scientifically. There’s a lot of contradictoriness in both of their thinking. Sometimes I feel like I’m hitting my head against the wall.
Q: I understand that feeling, and share the impatience, but even from this limited experience you’re describing, you can see the outline or embryo of how different elements of our ensemble of revolutionary work are working on people, and how people’s contradictory thinking and the nature of the system are also working on people. And you can get a feel for how this can come together on another level impacting society. Do you have thoughts on that?
A: One thing I think we should do more of is challenge people around revolutionary morality.
Q: How so?
A: Like these friends of mine—neither of them wants to defend what this system does but they don’t see a way beyond this. There is a certain understanding, but also their morality is a product of this system and how it has trained people to think about the world. There are people who go hungry and that is unnecessary, so if you don’t say we shouldn’t put up with this, that allows that to continue. People have to understand that it is on us.
Q: There is, as BA says, a place where epistemology meets morality. How do you see that in relation to what you’re bringing up?
A: How people understand the world has a moral dimension. Understanding and morality interpenetrate. You turn on the news, look at what’s happening, how the media is framing what’s going on through these talking heads of the system saying we need different policies .. they never talk about the right to eat, to housing, to education. That flows from an ethical standpoint—if you didn’t work hard enough you don’t deserve that.
With these friends of mine—I feel like, you understand enough, you should take this out. I was struggled with to do that. It’s not that I’m a certain kind of person or have a certain level of experience, I should be out there, and then raise my questions and disagreements. And I do! Even for people who argue “I don’t know enough,” there is also an importance of being courageous, being able to say, I don’t understand this—raising all your questions—and having intellectual integrity to go deeper into what you don’t understand. One thing that comes through in Stepping into the Future, everyone is grappling with different things in BA’s work, in different ways, but they take it seriously.
Q: You had some more thoughts off of this on the question of morality, right?
A: After I watched the film with one of my friends, we had a discussion about what’s going on in the world and how at every corner you see how people are—all this shit is on people’s backs, what people are facing. He agreed but said there was nothing he could do about it and he wasn’t gonna do anything. And I struggled with him—that he wasn’t acting on the understanding he had now, and how that was perpetrating the things he was against. He got upset, and said I was treating him like he was the enemy.
And I had to explain that there is a moral dimension to him knowing all this is wrong, and not doing anything to stop it, and that being on us. There isn’t going to be some grand person in power, basically some savior who’s gonna deal with these contradictions. People have to understand that it’s a system at the heart of these contradictions.
I told him people struggled with me over this very question: you know this is wrong, what are you gonna do about it!? And that’s why I’m a revolutionary, because it is what’s necessary in the world. Then I asked him whether he wanted to get a copy of BAsics and actually read it. I had asked him before and he didn’t really respond. So I suggested he get a copy of BAsics and we could read through it together. He shrugged and said, I don’t know. I was frustrated, given we had had a discussion leading up to that about what can he be doing right now. He said, I feel I have a lot of questions I don’t have answered. I said nobody has all the answers, but the world is facing enormous exacerbation of inequality and oppression. If you feel you’re going to study up on this to a point where you can be part of this that’s untenable, things will get much, much worse.
Then a couple weeks later I was having an argument with him and he said people who understand capitalism will be for revolution, and I said that’s not true. There are laws and principles of how this system does this all over the world. He said, how do you know I’m not with the revolution—I’m not with your revolution.
I said I’m not trying to be absolutist, but these people who do co-op work that you work with, when they talk about anti-capitalism and mention revolution, that doesn’t mean they’re really working towards revolution. I said I’d be very interested in talking with them about what they mean by revolution and what that is. But if I asked them if they wanted to get into BAsics, if they were serious, they wouldn’t shrug and say I don’t know. So, what side of history are you gonna be on?
This is something that needs to be broken through. When I started coming around, people would argue with me: they’d say, no, you have a point but that’s not what’s principal. This friend of mine told me he mentioned Raymond Lotta, along with others working on the environmental crisis in a presentation he made to a group. He didn’t understand there’s a different framework for understanding the environmental workings of capital.
Q: I appreciate your points on the importance of struggling with people. At the same time, it seems important to note that he did introduce people to Raymond Lotta and a revolutionary analysis of the environmental emergency, and that is all part of the process of the ensemble of our revolutionary work. I raise that in part for us to think about the point in the new editorial of making BA Everywhere a societal question and raising a lot of money to do that. I’m wondering if this reveals something about the potential for that. Where the first thing people do, even if they’re not ready to jump in with two feet, is to donate seriously to helping make Bob Avakian and his leadership and work a point of reference and struggle throughout society?
A: One of the people who saw the film with me is influenced by the Stop Mass Incarceration Network. One was supportive of Stop Patriarchy. They do donate to those causes. And one of them doesn’t have a lot of money. I have other friends who are supportive of the Party’s work in those realms. I have noticed that when we approach them to help that they are interested in ideological questions. But there’s a disconnect in their understanding of how this relates to revolution.
Q: That seems helpful in identifying some of the work we need to do. I know others are corresponding on that at revcom.us as well.
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